Name: creamtea reviewed Single on Aug 14, 2005 10:29 pm
Creamtea to DAPHNE23’s point that this was complicated but it has not been written for such little plot reason. Remember, JKR has said this is really the first half of Book 7, so the consequences of all this are going to come out then and be massive. We see foreshadowing of the consequences in GoF. I finally stumbled on the GoF mention of Love Potions yesterday, it's on pages 444-445, Rita Skeeter is reporting allegations that Hermione used a Love Potion to get Harry as her boyfriend. Pansy is quoted: 'she'd be well up to making a love potion as she's quite brainy'. A few pages later (page 449) we then have Snape threatening to spike Harry's drink with Veritaserum (no need to rub in the connection is there?). What I love about the GoF thing is that it shows in miniature the reactions we can expect to see writ large in Book 7 if Hermione was potioning Harry. In GoF the 'news' is broken by Rita Skeeter (who will have every incentive to do the same with the Love Potion story to finally get back at Hermione). Hermione gets serious hate male. She is nationally vilified. Ron is shocked by the thought of her messing with Love Potions, (you haven't been mixing up Love Potions, have you?'). Molly is cold/vindictive in her reaction to Hermione's supposed actions. Futhermore we learn that 'Love Potions are banned at Hogwarts'. Does that mean 'illegal'? If so, then she's in real trouble as she was 17 and 'of age' throughout most of the year. The Twins are going to get it for selling the stuff. A lot of the school will turn against her. Cho and Marietta will get their revenge, Marietta's mum will push for the maximum against Hermione in revenge for her daufgher's face. All this and much more is pay off for the set up now. The Love Potion business in HBP is just the set up for Book 7, not an end it itself. ALSO JKR would split the Trio right now – it’s the drama of it, these are supposed to be exciting stories after all. Will tackle the JKR ‘ideal girl’ stuff in a later essay.
Name: HouMac reviewed Single on Aug 14, 2005 02:07 pm
Brilliant essay, Creamtea! Very logical and persuasive. I really do want to believe it(I'm still having a hard time digesting how "poorly" H/G was written), but two issues are still nagging me. 1) Don't you think there would've been more scenes where JKR shows Harry and the gang eating/drinking. More scenes like the one where Hermione gets the trio drinks in Hogsmeade. Just to show that Hermione had been drugging Harry all along. That would've been very JKR-esque. But there's hardly any mention of eating/drinking the rest of the book. 2) The interview, JKR herself says Ginny's the "ideal" woman for Harry and how she hopes she really "fulfilled" that in the book(she didn't, btw). I really don't know what to make of that except that we're indeed supposed to lapup H/G as 'twu luv and how they were always meant to be together. Ur thoughts?
Name: Lurker17 reviewed Single on Aug 14, 2005 11:19 am
/I actually kind of wish, though, that someone WOULD present something even CLOSE to a logical, well-thought-out, canon-based argument AGAINST/ Because is pointless, there're 6 books with it I will not lose my precious time proving to someone who like wasting time invalidating (sp?) it. I'm sorry, really, but I like to expend my time with D/G smut or Tom Riddle.
Name: houseofboo reviewed Single on Aug 14, 2005 08:17 am
As much as I admire the brilliance of your essay, and even admitting most of your arguments are logical and seem like right, I cannot believe H/G isn't canon. Most unfortunately, the roaring and purring chest monster is what we got, and reading wonderfully developed ideas like yours only makes me more disappointed in HBP (at least, where romance is concerned). If what you thought up really happened, how much better the story would be, how much more BELIVEABLE and less ridiculous the plot! But JKR is the author of the series. She has chosen to write GoddessGinny, RibRipper (the chest creature) and L/T. I can only tell you that, if when B7 comes out your theory proves to be right, I'd be so happy and relieved_only I don't think that'll happen at all. Hmm. I was gonna end this post here, but maybe I'll extend it to write the reasons why I don't buy your theory? After all you did such a wonderful job, and it's just too esy to come here and comment "Oooh, I don't think so" and leave it like that not giving any reasons. Ok, firstly: The final dialogue between Harry and Ginny. ‘Understood each other perfectly’ could mean exactly that; ‘hard, blazing look’ could translate as ‘gutsy’ (word from JKR’ interview), courageous or determinate because she knew Harry was going to walk away from her_ and JKR has said in the same interview that it is hard to be the Chosen One’s girlfriend and Ginny is ideal for the job. The hard look, instead of tears, thus proves her brave and able to cope with the necessity of their separation ; Secondly: Harry leaving Ginny can read as Love’s Great Sacrifice. Ginny accepting it, same thing. Thirdly: HOW exactly was Hermione giving Harry the potion? IMHO that was the weakest point in your essay. If indeed she was spiking his drinks, it seems likely there would be MORE mentions to her handing him beverages apart from the butterbeer, specially before the Birth of the Monster (G/D snogging) as it is such a significant moment. And why would she change the means of giving him the potion? According to you, she used inhalation as a means in The Burrow, but then changed to liquid potion/spiking drinks. Why is that? That seems confusing. Surely she would trust her own Potion-making, why would she risk ordering WWW if that could raise Fred and George’s suspicions? Those are my biggest points of disagreement with your theory, BUT. From what I said in point three, I’d like to point out, now FOR your theory and not against it, that Hermione could have used inhalation all the time to give Harry the Love Potion? ‘I don’t go around putting potions in people’s drinks…’ maybe Hermione WAS telling the truth, if she was still giving Harry the same kind of potion she used at The Burrow. Just an idea. And one last thing, you demonstrated how Hermione’s slipping Harry love potion is not necessarily OOC (and congratulations for that; when I started to read I was skeptical). But, still it is very hard to accept that Hermione would fail to perceive such an action as morally wrong. An alternative would be Hermione being put under Imperius, but I dismiss that because, as you exposed, Harry MUST have been doped before he came near Amortentia (that damned flowery smell)_ and because I think the vase of flowers/Puking Pastille idea is brilliant and quite possible_ so she’d have been Imperiused before The Burrow which is almost impossible (just in case I’ll check OotP…). So, basically, if we accept Hermione as a moral person, either she didn’t tamper with Harry’s emotions or she was under Imperius. BASICALLY, I say, because that Confundus was quite OOC now I think of it, so she might not be quite so moral….or she’s indeed under Imperius? I’d better stop now, I got carried away. You see, those are the results of your essay, you got people thinking!! Thanks for your fantastic work. I still think JKR isn’t all that brilliant as I used to think and just blew it. But I’m glad other people still have faith.
Name: Daphne23 reviewed Single on Aug 14, 2005 08:00 am
I'm very impressed by this theory - it's really very cleverly presented and ingeniously worked out. I would love to believe it, as the unconvincing nature of H/G spoiled a lot of HBP for me, but unfortunately I can't really see it as plausible in canon. This is mainly due to the comments JKR has made in her interviews - not so much the 'ideal girl' section, although obviously that's significant, but her reaction to the interviewers' reaction to Harry/Ginny on the Leaky Cauldron interview. I also think it's a bit too complicated to have been written in for so little plot reason, and don't really see JKR engineering a split between Harry and Hermione at a point when Harry needs the Trio most. However, I still say that I loved this essay - it explains so much about Ginny's characterisation, in particular - and will now at least pretend to myself that Harry is under a love potion whenever I re-read HBP. :)
Name: HoneyBee85 reviewed Single on Aug 13, 2005 07:01 pm
Creamtea, I have to tell you that this is an incredible essay and I believe in your theory 100%. I really don't have a doubt in my mind that you are correct. I knew something was up when I firts read HBP but I just couldn't put my finger on it. I also knew that there had to be a reason why the theme of Love Potions kept poping up all throughout the book. This theory gives an explanation to both, and reading through the book again myself, I can't find anything that can disprove it. All of the evidence is there and most of all this seems like the type of twist that JKR would come up with. Thanks again for writing this, and I agree that more people should be reading this and commenting on it. Its just too good to be ignored. But I guess it is a bit of a shock to some people.
Name: LuMac reviewed Single on Aug 13, 2005 03:45 pm
How many people have actually read the essay? Only 24 reviews in here, and I don't see many at FA talking abt it.Something this brilliant has GOT TO BE READ BY MORE PEOPLE! Especially by H/G shippers. How many places has this essay been posted at so far?
Name: Anise reviewed Single on Aug 13, 2005 12:01 pm
the ideas and argument presented in this essay. So far, there haven't been any... and I mean NONE, even if you REALLY stretch the point.
Name: Anise reviewed Single on Aug 13, 2005 12:00 pm
Thanks for all the reviews, y'all! :) I actually kind of wish, though, that someone WOULD present something even CLOSE to a logical, well-thought-out, canon-based argument AGAINST
Name: lurker17 reviewed Single on Aug 13, 2005 11:01 am
For God's sake people, H/G is cannon face it! *going to read D/G smut*
Name: Virginia reviewed Single on Aug 12, 2005 04:48 pm
Wow, that was a hell of a theory! I'm not totally sure about it, because (as you said), H/G could've been just poorly writing romance as it could turn out to be a brilliant plot such as yours. I'm not holding my breath, though I'm quite curious about your next theory!
Name: creamtea reviewed Single on Aug 12, 2005 12:25 am
Thank's everyone. PADFOOTLOVER, thanks for your comment. Yes, I agree, I cannot understand the attitude of 'okay, so it's rubbish, but because I'm a true fan I'll just swallow it, and any attempt to explain it all is just causing trouble'. But then some elemnets of the fanbase always seem to me to be passive - they just want to be spoonfed by the author and make NO effort to combatively engage with the text, even though JKR time and again invites them to. This passive acceptance is just doing her a grave dis-service here. She WANTS you to tackle it, that's why it's written the way it is.
Name: Hermione Sweetheart reviewed Single on Aug 11, 2005 01:23 pm
Wow! That was so detailed and awesome. At first I thought it was insane, but reading through it makes perfect sense! Look at all the evidence!
Name: mary reviewed Single on Aug 11, 2005 11:43 am
very interesting theory, now i cant wait till book 7 to see how it all plays out!
Name: Padfootlover reviewed Single on Aug 11, 2005 11:03 am
Wow - that was amazing. People have called us JKR bashers, but I think what you thought of HBP is a mark of how much you trust JKR. If you believe she'd write something so bad without giving any excuse for it in the next book, then that shows you don't have much faith in JKR as a writer. I'm trying to believe there's some sort of explination for it, and, like you, I thought the Love Potion theory was just denial. Now that I see your evidence, I feel better about it. I really hope you're right, and this was a wonderfully written essay. Amazing job.:)
Name: Jayne1955 reviewed Single on Aug 11, 2005 07:51 am
I have to admit, I do not buy all of this but I do think it was very well done.
Name: Lysette reviewed Single on Aug 11, 2005 06:18 am
I still think Hermione did the whole thing out of a misguide sense of love. Hermione does love Harry, but has decided that Harry will never love her back, so Hermione took it on herself to pick out the perfect, ideal girl for her friend Harry, namely Ginny. Ginny is just like Cho, only a lot more cheerful and better. Harry needs Cheerful since Sirius died. It is for the best. Who cares that he has never shown ANY interest in her before, once he gets to know her, he will see that she is just perfect for him. Women do this sort of stupidity all the time, only it gets really funny when they do it for their Gay male friends, and men hate them for it. Men do it too, but they would rather have an accident with a cigar cutter than admit it. It is always for his or her own good, and it usually ends badly. That has never stopped Matchmakers before. I still thing the ultimate irony is if Harry really was falling in love with Hermione, and all her matchmaking destroyed it. As for Harry and Draco, I think the potions effects are wearing off there as well, and for the first time ever, Harry sees that Draco struggles to keep up appearances that everything is fine every day, when it really is not. They both have obligations to others that they neither understand nor did they chose to make, but they both have to keep going regardless of their personal feelings on the matter. It gives them both a common ground. It is like when it has happened that solders from both sides of a war celebrate Christmas together because they are all just men that are far from their homes and families during the Holiday Season. If only for a few days they are not Enemies. I think Harry finally saw Draco as just a boy who is in far over his head, and not some evil enemy that must be beaten at any costs.
Name: creamtea reviewed Single on Aug 11, 2005 01:55 am
Response: thanks to everyone for their comments. I’m glad that people have raised that Hermione didn’t do it because she suddenly turned eeeeeevil – she did it because she’s Hermione, cares about Harry and thinks she knows what’s best for him, and what she sees as best is ‘luuuurve’. To those of you who made specific points: TAB: I actually hadn’t considered it from that angle, that she did it from as much of a direct concern for Harry as for Ginny, but actually, I think that is true. It’s just double the yummy goodness from her perspective: she sees that she gets to help TWO of her friends out. MYNUET: thanks for your blow to the head comments: because that is a very simple explanation (and actually I don’t think I even gave an explanation of HOW the blow to the head worked – just that it did). Even if that’s not the reason why ‘you’re not supposed to hit them on the head’ then it is still a great reason why Harry becomes so much more responsive after the blow than before: he got jumped by his subconscious when he wasn’t looking. CALEYTHIA: thank you for your comments, it means a lot to me that you posted. LYSETTE: totally agree with you on the date rape drug thing – because this is the direct equivalent. When Harry finds out what was done, there will be no end of trouble and comeback on this one. KATHRYN: YESSSS!!!!!!!! He was infatuated/obsessed with two people – Ginny and Draco. I was going to write a section on that, but the essay was long enough already and dealing with Draco would have made it even longer. My take on it is: The Pastille ‘potion’ worked like Amortentia (it could have even been a try at making Amortentia that didn’t work out – for a comparison see Ernie McMillan’s try at his own potion which ended up as a solid purple lump at the bottom of the cauldron) which means infatuation (Ginny) and OBSESSION (Draco). It is CANON that Harry is obsessed with Draco – the narrative voice tells us so and Ron directly states it. If you notice, his obsession starts in Diagon Alley (after the Pastille) but then takes off to a new height after the blow to the head. It’s only after the blow to the head that we get the ‘elf tailing’ and JKR hilarious ‘Draco coming secretly’ lines (love ‘em!) and shirking on the job for Dumbledore to ‘track’ Draco instead. For me his obsession on Draco just adds weight to the ‘love potion’ theory. On Draco: do you all note that at the end – when he’s ‘coming out of it’ on Ginny - that his emotions toward Draco are still there, but not obsessive but rather more concerned and caring? As a Draco fan and H/D shipper (if I ship at all) I get a lot of hope from the fact that as he’s ‘coming to’ at the funeral his feelings toward Draco remain and stabilise because they’re genuine. SOPHIAJOANNA: Hermione’s reaction to the Ron/Felix Felicis. I never even thought of it as repressed guilt, but of course you are right, why shouldn’t it be? Repress it all then sling all the guilt at someone else the moment chance arises. The fact that she slings it all at Harry merely adds to the irony, and as I said in the essay it gives her the feeling that she’s somehow justified because ‘he’s just as bad’. POTTERLOVEGOOD: I never really got involved with the Harry/Hermione /Cho thing as I only joined the fanbase this February. But yes, Hermione could have easily sabotaged it to ‘rescue Ginny’. After all, it’s canon that Hermione was ‘giving advice’ to Ginny during OoTP, so at some level she was already emotionally invested in Ginny’s ‘success’. A lot of the points we have all made come down to the same thing: Hermione did it out of some mis-guided care for Harry, and a mis-guided care for Ginny too. Mis-guided for Ginny because when Harry finds out, whatever he felt for Ginny (nothing in my opinion) is OVER. When he finds out, not only will he not trust anything he felt for her, he will not be able to trust her either. Thanks for all the beta-work and publication arrangements ANISE. I’m glad I wrote this essay, because I could see a lot of posters getting upset at both H/G, but worse, angry at the apparent standard of the writing. I don’t think this is JKR’s worst work (H/G) I think it is her GREATEST.
Name: creamtea reviewed Single on Aug 10, 2005 10:47 pm
will write much more later - but on the gunpowder comment: the Twins hadn't been in that room for months. All their school time then setting up shop means they were out of that room for months not weeks. If they had 'popped back' then their workshop would still have been in Diagon Alley. IMO the smell wasn't from the Twins explosions.
Name: Cat reviewed Single on Aug 10, 2005 06:04 pm
"...small explosions from Fred and George's bedroom were considered perfectly normal." (COS, ch. 4, paragraph 1) In other words, it would be perfectly normal for Harry to be smelling gunpowder, considering that there probably had been a lot of small explosions in F&G's room over the years.
Name: potterlovegood reviewed Single on Aug 10, 2005 04:09 pm
Absolutely brilliant creamtea!!! There are a few weak spots but overall I think you have definitely got something here. Two things I want to add: 1) I was a little skeptical about Hermione actually lying to Harry, but then I remember that we know for a fact after reading HBP that Hermione has already lied to Harry in the past. In OotP when she tells Ron and Harry that Ginny is over Harry, we now know this to be a lie. Ginny tells us at the end that Hermione knew all a long that Ginny was not over Harry she was just trying to move on. and 2) I think another strong motivation for why Hermione would have given Harry the love potion, was for Harry himself. Do you remember how invested Hermione was in Harry's relationship with Cho? She was actually trying to give him advice. I think Hermione, in her mind, was trying to help Harry, maybe given him a distraction. She saw how distracted he was with Cho, I think she was trying to give him a little push with Ginny, knowing that Ginny still liked him, so that he would have something else to think about other than Sirius' death and Voldemort. Again, trying to control the situation. I personally never thought Hermione had a romantic interest in Harry, I think she is more like his mother and she was trying to help her son by manipulating his emotions the best way she knew how, using magic.
Name: SophiaJoanna reviewed Single on Aug 10, 2005 02:16 pm
Thank you, Creamtea, thank you! *Prostrates self before Creamtea* You have restored my faith in JKR's writing abilities. Everything - the bad prose, shoddy plotting, all of it - now makes sense. I wondered why, after only 2 tiny mentions in all 5 books, Love Potions and mentions of them were suddenly everywhere. One small thing I'd like to see some commentary on: Hermione's anger when she believes Harry has dosed Ron with Felix Felices. I thought it was hypocritical before because of the McLaggen Confundus; now it is much more so. Could Hermione be projecting her guilty deep-seated sense of wrongdoing onto Harry?
Name: Kathryn reviewed Single on Aug 10, 2005 02:09 pm
Wow. What a mind-blowing essay. After reading it I actually think a love potion theory is plausible! Especially how it explains Hermione's reactions to Harry whenever Ginny is mentioned, and why the whole relationship seemed clumsily written. Perhaps now D/G is a possibility after all! *clings to desperate hope* As a D/G shipper, though, one thing I noticed was that during the latter half of the book, Harry was obsessed with 2 people: Draco and Ginny! (albeit for different reasons). I thought it was kind of neat that his two best friends end up together (R/Hr). Maybe this means that the 2 more minor characters he was totally obsessed with will end up together too? Anyhow, LOVED your essay to death!!!
Name: chuya reviewed Single on Aug 10, 2005 11:03 am
Can I profess my undying love for you now? I loved this essay! It has somewhat restored my faith in JKR's sanity and writing skills... And Merlin did I need it! Thank you so much!
Name: Lysette reviewed Single on Aug 10, 2005 10:34 am
Creamtea and I discussed this several times and we agree on most points but one. Why Hermione would do this to her friend Harry? She thinks that Hermione is helping out her friend Ginny, while I think Hermione had far more personal reasons for doing this. I firmly believe that at the beginning of HBP, Hermione had been in love with Harry for nearly five years, since the Troll Incident to be sure. In CoS, we see just whom Hermione fancies her ideal man to be namely Lockhart, the “Great Hero” and idol to “millions.” Lockhart is proved to be a fake, but Harry her friend proves once again to be the real thing by saving her other friend Ginny in the Chamber. Given that Hermione spends her time at the Burrow staying in Ginny’s room, she has heard often about Ginny’s Crush on Harry Potter. Something she shares although unknown to Ginny. SPEW was partly because of Harry freeing Dolby, the House Elf, and Hermione is disappointed when Harry does not support her in it. Harry does think of her fondly because of it, but keeps it to himself. Notice SPEW is completely dropped by Hermione in HBP, and only Harry brings it up. Then there is the Yule Ball, and I do think Hermione went to the ball with Viktor and spent three hours getting ready because she wanted a reaction from Harry. One that was never spoken to her. Instead Ron spends the night jumping all over her for “fraternizing with the Enemy.” How many people in Great Britain remember the WWII posters about “loose lips sink ships?" Anyhow, Ginny might fancy that if only Harry would notice her, he would love her. Fangirl and rockstar, it’s the same thing. Hermione on the other hand has FIVE YEARS of being with Harry daily for up to eleven months out of the year, and Harry has never noticed her that she could see. She has no way of knowing how much she creeps into his thoughts every day. Hermione does not like Chance. She likes FACTS. The fact is after five years, to her knowledge; Harry does not feel any more for her than he does Ron. Hermione is forgeting that Harry is a year young, a boy so they amture slower as it is, and with his upbringing, recognizing love within himself would take time. Thes are two very proud and insecure people who are to frighten of rejection to risk putting themselves out there. Cho had to ask Harry, not the other way around. Then in OotP, Hermione learns first hand what kind of a girl Harry does fancy, namely Cho. He likes a pretty, popular, athletic, small girl. Sadly Hermione is none of these things but small. She does not know about Harry’s breakdown at the DoM due to Hermione’s fall. She does not know that if she had died, he would have happily let the Death Eaters kill him and fall lifeless over her body. Very Romeo and Juliet, that, but I think Harry actually likes grand gestures. “Realizing” that Harry could never feel for her, what she feels for him, she decides on the plan to give Harry the ideal perfect girl he wants, Ginny. He just hasn’t figured out he wants Ginny yet. I suspect Molly may have planted some of this by her own Matchmaking efforts and complaining that if only Harry would just see how perfect Ginny is for him. Molly also likes to organize and control the lives of everyone around her without any regard for what they want. Molly always knows best. Hermione puts her great plan into action, but you can’t manufacture love that was never there to begin with. It just doesn’t happen. Harry never loved Ginny, and no amount of Love Potion (Insert Date Rape Drug) will change that. I firmly believe that the reason it takes so long for Hermione’s plan to work is because Harry was in love, only it was not with Ginny. It took Hermione attacking him about the attack on Malfoy while he was down, and Ginny defending him, no matter how stupid it was to get the potion to really kick in. Harry thought Hermione didn’t care for him anymore, and his lonely battle against the Love Potion was lost. In book seven we will see the aftermath of it all. Harry will be rightly furious that someone he cares for and trusted would use him so. They have told girls for years to never drink anything at a party or a club that they did not open themselves because of the Date Rape Drug. Well Hermione used it on her good friend Harry, just to “tweak the circumstances” to make them come out "right." Harry has been violated just like Ron was, and that is something you do not get over easy when it is someone you don’t know, much less someone you thought you loved and trusted with your very life.
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