The idea that you get rejected so you try to submit the same piece that was REJECTED seems rather idiotic to me. Wouldn't one assume that, without the proper changes, it would just be rejected again? Then again, that could just be me. *rolls eyes* I know I come up with crazy ideas (like the one I had where I thought grammar and spelling was important...) perhaps this is just another one...

CharmedLife19 @ Aug 04, 2006 01:36 pm

I'm not trying to defend them, but if they didn't read the rules, they probably didn't read the site updates.
The fact that the cabal no longer does beta work was probably not read.
Maybe before that rule went into effect one of the cabal members took pity on the person and beta'ed their work for them once.
Once again I'm not trying to defend them, its just my idea of what may have happened. Then again Mynuet did say several people.

bigreader @ Aug 04, 2006 07:38 pm

Well, it was never our policy that the Cabal would have to do betas, and having people play the game of "Hey, this person told me to get a beta, but if I upload it again tomorrow, maybe another person will beta it for me, like happened last time!" is why I put my foot down and said no more betaing. It's slovenly and rude and just all around irritating to randomly decide that the rules don't apply to you and other people need to do your work for you.

A more likely excuse is that they never got the rejection email, thought their story had just mysteriously disappeared, and reuploaded. Even there, though, if you think the site is having technical problems, the thing to do is to report them, not to keep uploading ad nauseum.

Mynuet @ Aug 05, 2006 05:13 am

The whole "Hey, this person told me to get a beta, but if I upload it again tomorrow, maybe another person will beta it for me, like happened last time!" thing sounds like when a child goes to one parent and they say 'no' so the child then proceeds to ask the other parent.

As for those who believe the rules don't apply to them: The whole 'holier-than-thou' attitude will get you nowhere. Those who truly think that way in any area of life (be it fanfiction writing or anything else) need to take a step out into the real world. (Then again, I'd love to be there when one of these people get a job and then goes to their boss saying, "Oh - what? You mean the 'Faculty Code of Conduct' applies to me too?")

CharmedLife19 @ Aug 05, 2006 05:22 pm

I, like the poster above, am not trying to defend anyone here. As Shar said, there are several people that partake in this ridiculousness.

I will say, however, that, once upon a time, I was one of the people to reupload. Before anyone strings me up, it was my first fic and I hadn't the slightest clue as to how to procure a beta. I had no idea who to ask. So, I edited my own story and submitted it. It was rejected, much to my saddness. I printed it out, edited it again, typed in the edits, and resubmitted. It was rejected yet again. Finally, I talked to a buddy of mine and she agreed to beta for me (thanks, JEN!). She edited my story, and, honestly, the errors she found were minor (considering I had already edited it twice, I would have been highly upset had there been more than minor errors -- lol).

I'm not saying that my story should have been approved based on the fact that they were only minor errors, I'm just offering up a plausible explanation (if any of the submitters are indeed honest and do indeed have any literary integrity).

The only reason I offer this up (and simultaneously hang my head in shame) is in an attempt to lighten Shar's irritation the least little bit. *grins widely*

MrsDanielRadcliffe @ Aug 06, 2006 04:39 am

Fixing as many errors as you can find and resubmitting is one thing. Not changing the errors that were specifically pointed out in the rejection letter is another thing entirely.

Mynuet @ Aug 07, 2006 01:39 am

Congrats of having 450(actually 451) authors!

Akt5us @ Aug 07, 2006 10:22 am

Oh, woo! I hadn't noticed, but that's pretty darn awesome. :D Yay for D/G writers!

Mynuet @ Aug 07, 2006 01:54 pm

Myn, are you familiar with the Amish practice of shunning? I think we should start doing this to people who can't follow the rules. I understand mistakes, they happen to everyone. However I have a really hard time with blatant disregard of rules, that everyone else manages to follow. Once again "Congrats" on making a stand.

FeehanLaurens @ Aug 09, 2006 07:10 am

"...I have a really hard time with blatant disregard of rules, that everyone else manages to follow."
Me too. Shunning seems extreme, but if there was a way to put users on probation. Then, if they continue to show blatant disregard, perhaps banning. But I don't know if that's at all possible as this isn't a forum but an archive.

And yet, somehow, that still seems extreme...

CharmedLife19 @ Aug 09, 2006 12:33 pm

Well, a lot of people in fandom are young, and some have personal life issues that can make social interactions difficult, and so I believe in giving people a chance to reform. Everyone has to get a chance, you know? And while I'm quick to get impatient and write someone a firm letter saying that they need to shape up or stop posting - it generally happens by the third time I've had to hear their name in a rule-breaking context - I'm fairly slow in terms of losing my temper sufficiently to allow for the humiliation of having their name spoken publicly in connection with a scolding. It's a fairly extreme thing to do to someone, which is why the two wall of shame posts haven't had names attached. It's public, and it definitely puts people on notice, but they can read the condemnation without feeling like they're going to be branded by it forever.

The thing about adopting a formal practice of something like shunning is that it's so easy for it to lend itself to abuse. Today someone is shunned because they're submitting something that breaks all fourteen rules, egregiously, and keeps on doing it. Tomorrow, only one or two rules. The next day, because someone doesn't like their story, the next day because someone doesn't like their face. I'd like to think that I'm not the sort of person who would succumb to that mindset, and neither are the members of the Cabal, but I don't want to give any of us the opportunity to find out we're wrong. People make mistakes, and sometimes they make them a lot, but giving them a chance to keep their dignity while they fix their mistakes is important to me.

The only exception to this rule would be proven and excessive cases of plagiarism, as happened in the Cara debacle. There's no fandom police, so the only punishment available for an unrepentant plagiarist is public humiliation - and they only get one shot to repent their ways privately.

Mynuet @ Aug 09, 2006 03:33 pm

*nods head* Shunning is extreme, trust me. My grandmother was shunned (she was a Dunker ... married a "heathen") and it's no fun. However, I am willing to offer myself to any of these "repeat rejects" as a beta! I mean, I didn't get a 650 on the verbal part of my SAT's for nothing. ;) Don't be shy people, just ask. Betas Don't Bite! =)

shalita @ Aug 09, 2006 03:40 pm

"Betas Don't Bite" should be some new slogan. Post it around - maybe people will start to get the message. :)

CharmedLife19 @ Aug 09, 2006 05:24 pm

Sorry, I got just a little carried away with the punishment idea. Apparently you should not respond to a post like this one while thinking about cheating husbands. Mynuet, people who make mistakes are so lucky to have cabal members like you instead of impestuous hot-heads like myself in charge. Shunning is a little extreme for mistakes in fanfiction, I realize that. Consider the idea completely withdrawn from the table. That said, is there a way to keep count of people who disregard the rules (submit a rejected fic over and over with no changes) and put them on probation?
I think the idea of posting the slogan "Betas Don't Bite" is aboslutely fabulous. I say run with it. Cheers!

FeehanLaurens @ Aug 10, 2006 07:14 am

Has anyone thought of creating a LJ (or other blogspace) group/community for willing BETAs specifically for the Archive and then sending the silly little bunnies over? Just a suggestion. Sorry for the misspellings. I'm tired.

jane_valar @ Aug 10, 2006 05:09 pm

Beta hunting will be the topic of our very first forum category.

Mynuet @ Aug 10, 2006 05:29 pm

If this weren't a D/G site, I wouldn't point out the obvious, especially as I am newly here, forced here by a friend... But isn't Draco an unrepentetant rule-breaker? Yes, everyone needs to follow the rules, and I, myself, enforce that. But, perhaps a temporary time away from the site for those who refuse to follow that rule? It would be nice to fine them several knutes per hour for the time it took to fix the errors, and find a beta for them... :)

Momster @ Aug 28, 2006 03:32 am