Name: Lysette reviewed Single on Aug 24, 2005 06:36 am
I honestly think that when Hermione said that Ginny had given up on Harry, she really meant herself. Hermione, like most Herons, firmly believes that Harry is not interested in her that way, Ginny is his type like Cho, not herself. We keep getting told that Ginny is just like Cho, only better. That is why she gave Harry the Love Potion. (Date Rape Drug - no difference, but tragically Hermione cannot see it.) Most of HBP is Hermione trying to secure Ron, who she is convinced does have feelings for her, but Ron may not have them the way she thinks anymore. JKR would like having everyone thinking that the wrong person loved them because she likes to mix it up. The more Hermione tries to force a declaration from Ron, the more he tries to avoid it, does explain R/Hr in HBP quite well. Now that Hermione is his for the taking, Ron is not so sure he wants her. Remember, "Sometimes you will find having a thing is not as fine as wanting." (Mr. Spock on Star Trek)
Name: Kinky Kiwi reviewed Single on Aug 23, 2005 04:21 pm
Yeah, ok what I meant was, wouldn't his attraction of Ginny (fake or not) have happened that much faster with her being so freakin' good looking? Hope I got that across, because when I read what I said, it wasn't that clear.
Name: Kinky Kiwi reviewed Single on Aug 23, 2005 04:08 pm
As an anti-Harry/Ginny shipper, this makes me feel SO much better. Thank you, thank you, thank you. :) Also, re-reading the book, I realise-hey there's some canon evidence for Ginny/Blaise. Hmm...Oh, also going along that strain, Pansy commented that Blasise thought that Ginny was attractive and that 'he's hard to please'-hard evidence that Ginny is one hot piece of Weasley, so shouldn't Harry have noticed way back in the Burrow without the potion?
Name: Jennay reviewed Single on Aug 23, 2005 11:56 am
Loved it. It's writings like this that give me hope for Draco/Ginny! So - thank you, so much. ;D Cheers, Jenny :)
Name: Carissa reviewed Single on Aug 22, 2005 04:45 pm
Thank you for writing this. I couldn't believe that Hermione would do what she did. It just seems too OOC and manufactured, even for JKR. I know that she loves plot twists, but this seemed too much OOC for Hermione. But now that I've read your essay, I completely believe that she did this for a higher purpose. Hermione is a very smart witch and of course this would occur to her. But I don't think she knew she was making a huge mistake. Maybe when all of this comes out and Harry knows and they are all distant from one another, it'll make them closer. Because, eventually Harry will realize that Hermione has always had the best intentions for him. And I think, that that kind of love is what will defeat Voldemort. The kind of love only a friend or someone like family could give. I could go on and on. I think I might write an essay. I've got a lot to say all of the sudden. Thanks for the enlightenment.
Name: penyn reviewed Single on Aug 22, 2005 10:11 am
After reading this essay (both parts), I felt a lot better about the Harry/Ginny romance. I'll be honest-it didn't occur to me that Harry was being dosed with a love potion (it occurred to my mother though...). However, the love potion theory makes a lot more sense than just Harry suddenly liking Ginny.
Name: Vanceone reviewed Single on Aug 22, 2005 07:11 am
Creamtea; I do look forward to your interview piece. I am curious as to how you get around that... But anyway. I, like BamaSlamma, am a H/Hr shipper. You say that R/Hr are being written as a couple--which I devoutly hope not. If anything, the R/Hr relationship in HBP is worse than H/G. Why don't you think that Hermione may be under a love potion too? I've never seen any evidence that She liked Ron before book 6--Ron liking her, yeah; but not reciprocated. And if love potions are being used... why not? I could see someone dosing Hermione with a LP--especially after they get to Hogwarts.
Name: Anonymous reviewed Single on Aug 22, 2005 07:02 am
Nicely done, Anise. Romantic love indeed is not what Harry has that'll defeat LV. I think JKR through Dumbledore has made it very clear in this series. Harry indeed has shown that he has the "power" to love to all kinda of species, and that'll ultimately help him defeat LV. I especially loved how u brought up Hermione's true motivations while she was slipping Harry the LP....she obviously thinks his "romantic love" for Ginny will help in conquering LV(so Hermione-ish, always thinking she knows best for Harry), but it won't. Brilliant piece! Definitely gives a good picture of what all the "romance" meant in HBP, and what we should be looking fwd. to in Book 7.
Name: Lysette reviewed Single on Aug 22, 2005 05:48 am
I think the love Dumbledore was talking about is not Romantic Love at all, but the love and compassion that you would be willing to risk all to save someone you do not even know. We see Harry extend this to include Centaurs, House Elves, Giants and even Goblins. This is the kind of love a Leader must have in battle. The kind of love that makes their followers willing to follow him into Hell (As we literally see in Odysseys.) rightfully confident that their leader will lead them back out again. Something we see in Horatio Hornblower again and again. No matter how much he asks of his men, he always demands more of himself. Hornblower learned very quickly that their were not there to fight the enemy, but to defeat him. JKR harps on unity constantly, and I think that is the real way Harry will defeat Voldemort, not through the love of one person, but by uniting Wizards and Muggles, Centaurs, House Elves, Giants and everyone else against the common darkness known as Voldemort, Harry's opposite number, who despises "all love and light." Ginny mistook the love he has for all living things for a love for her, alone, in CoS, and I think a lot of G/H supporters did the same thing.
Name: creamtea reviewed Single on Aug 21, 2005 10:39 pm
CRESSIDA0201: The information/theorising on what Harry does NOT do is simply ‘extras’ as far as I’m concerned. The theory is based on the foundation of what Hermione DOES do – that she dosed Harry (probably only twice – once at the Burrow and once at the pub). That she did that is quite clear to me based on her reaction the morning after the Burrow, and Harry’s instant reaction to the pub drink. SPMJ: Don’t get thrown off track by the interview – I will essay on that later. BAMASLAMMA: I know that you are an H.Hr shipper and as such I don’t like to hurt your feelings with what I am about to post, but … IMO the only ship that was Love Potioned was H/G, R/Hr was a genuine ship – which is why we see far more of it than we do H/G. This LP wasn’t ‘fluff’ and ‘romance gone wrong’, it was emotional and psychological date-rape drugging with dire consequences for Book 7. The consequences for Ginny of the whole mess are life threatening: as ‘Harry’s GF’ she will be a target for Voldemort and IMO will end up dead because of that. JKR has not spent a lot of the book writing fluff – there is actually not much H/G in the whole book really – she has set up a situation with shattering consequences for Harry’s quest in Book 7 as the strength of the Trio will shatter precisley because of the LP thing (due to mis-trust), just when they need to be at their most united.
Name: Cressida0201 reviewed Single on Aug 21, 2005 03:15 pm
Creamtea, I applaud your thorough and detailed examination of the text. I'll be surprised if this turns out to be true, though, simply because too much of the theory turns on what Harry does *not* do and does *not* think. It's almost impossible to tell the difference between a deliberate omission and a simple oversight--though I appreciate your point about the times when JKR *could* have had Harry say or think something, and didn't do so. Anyway, even if this theory is not borne out by Book 7, I think it's excellent material for a consolatory fanfic!
Name: bamaslamma29 reviewed Single on Aug 20, 2005 09:25 am
While I would love to believe your wonderfully thought out and researched essay, honestly I can't buy that Rowling would waste so much of her book on misguided love potions, bringing about couples that were never meant to be. (Believe me, I would LOVE to believe it, being a H/Hr shipper myself, but I just don't). So much of the sixth book was taken up with the Womances and Wuv that I have a hard time believing come the seventh book, it'll all be proven as one big ruse. What would be the purpose of that? The importance? And since she's now facing writing the last book, you'd think she would be spending more time writing of things of importance, rather than trivialized lurve-gone-wrong. I think what she meant to do, with these pairings, was finish up what she started with the whole R/Hr and H/G thing. I think she wrote it so poorly because shipping is not a huge deal to her. Like she said in her interview (which made me cringe at how obvious it is that she does NOT KNOW how poorly she wrote these romances) we are now supposed to know that it was ROn and Hermione all along and that Ginny is the ideal girl for Harry. Rowling just doesn't understand how very poor, cheesy and contrived she wrote it. I guess there's a reason she's not a romance author. :/ While I do find it suspicious that love potions were mentioned so frequently in the book, I really don't think we're going to find out that the reason behind that had to do with that the pairings were not real, because they were all love-potion induced. That would be a waste of almost 1/3 of the entire book on a romance-ruse... and I couldn't even believe that if we were only on the fourth book rather than the next to last. I simply don't see her wasting so much time on romance-ruses, when there isn't enough time to waste on such frivolity. Oh how I would love to believe H/G and R/Hr are all wrong for each other. I REALLY would, since I believe the author inadvertantly wrote H/Hr with the better more healthy relationship and certainly left clues that it could have been them in the end. Unfortunatly, Rowling sees NONE of this, nor does she see, I'm afraid, how AWFULLY she wrote the romances she DID choose. I commend your work... I really do. But just based on her interview and on the fact that this is the next to last book, I sincerely doubt that Harry was potioned to fall in lurve with Ginny. Though I would LLOOVVEE to be proven wrong. :0( Cheers, Bama
Name: Lady Alchymia reviewed Single on Aug 19, 2005 05:01 pm
Quite an intriguing theory. Well researched and reasoned. If true, it would certainly help explain what Harry's personal quest was in book 6 - to escape a love potion ;). Here is a small canon reference you might find of interest ... POA Book 3, Chapter 5: They headed down to breakfast, where Mr. Weasley was reading the front page of the Daily Prophet with a furrowed brow and Mrs. Weasley was telling Hermione and Ginny about a love potion she'd made as a young girl. All three of them were rather giggly.
Name: SPMJ reviewed Single on Aug 19, 2005 01:30 pm
Incredible work, creamtea. The whole thing makes a ton of sense. I want to be believe it, I really do! BUT, how would you explain JKR's interview? Especially this: Interviewer: Were you always -----ing it? [We can’t figure out what Emerson actually said here.] JKR: Well, no, not really, because the plan was, which I really hope I fulfilled, is that the reader, like Harry, would gradually discover Ginny as pretty much the ideal girl for Harry. She's tough, not in an unpleasant way, but she's gutsy. He needs to be with someone who can stand the demands of being with Harry Potter, because he's a scary boyfriend in a lot of ways. He's a marked man. I think she's funny, and I think that she's very warm and compassionate. These are all things that Harry requires in his ideal woman. But, I felt — and I'm talking years ago when all this was planned — initially, she's terrified by his image. I mean, he's a bit of a rock god to her when she sees him first, at 10 or 11, and he's this famous boy. So Ginny had to go through a journey as well. And rather like with Ron, I didn’t want Ginny to be the first girl that Harry ever kissed. That's something I meant to say, and it's kind of tied in. One of the ways in which I tried to show that Harry has done a lot of growing up — in “Phoenix,” remember when Cho comes into the compartment, and he thinks, ‘I wish I could have been discovered sitting with better people,’ basically? He's with Luna and Neville. So literally the identical thing happens in “Prince,” and he's with Luna and Neville again, but this time, he has grown up, and as far as he's concerned he is with two of the coolest people on the train. They may not look that cool. Harry has really grown. And I feel that Ginny and Harry, in this book, they are total equals. They are worthy of each other. They've both gone through a big emotional journey, and they've really got over a lot of delusions, to use your word, together. So, I enjoyed writing that. I really like Ginny as a character. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ I just can't get over that. Either way, spectacular job on the essay. It'll definitely make rereading HBP a heck of a lot easier for us who know H/G was poorly build-up(from 2-5) and written(in 8) ALL ALONG.
Name: Lurker17 reviewed Single on Aug 19, 2005 10:51 am
/For JKR they are her tools for telling her tale/ But she uses in this case (romance) to be humorous and light-hearted. Even when there's angst is to be fun for the reader. She said this, she does it since book 2, why is so hard to accept the romance in HP are not to be a great mystery ala Severus Snape is now? /Is Harry Potter ever going to fall in love with Hermione or is he going to fall in love with Ginny Weasley? A. In Book IV Harry does decide he likes a girl, but it's not Hermione or Ginny. However, he's only 14, so there's plenty of time for him to change his mind. ;-) / There you go, the world not end because of kiss. Don't see Harry/Luna shippers coming with this stuff.
Name: creamtea reviewed Single on Aug 19, 2005 12:29 am
My take on JKR's interview is coming up as fast as I can get it together - but it's in queue behind another eassay I'm doing (twinned with one of Anise's). In short I think JKR did her usual brilliant job of misdirection: she's done it before a LOT, this is just one more instance. Next question: Would JKR stick it to Ginny and Hermione like this? That is a question I get a lot, and I think that yes she would (obviously I think she already has). These characters are FAR more fictional to her than they are to us, as she is writing them; we buy into them emotionally as we read them, but it's very different if you are the creator. Writing fanfic doesn't give you that perspective either - as you write fanfic because you love the characters. For JKR they are her tools for telling her tale, it may upset her if she has to even go so far as to kill a chracter, but she'll still do it if that's what her tale demands. She killed Sirius though it upset her terribly to do it, and she killed DD likewise: she'll stick it to Ginny and Hermione. I believe she's partly writing a 'morality play', where no-one is perfect and what goes around eventually comes around, where people's choices define them: well this falls right into that. JKR isn't some 'Auntie Wendy' figure, all cuddles and hot chocolate, she is a writer who is aiming at a place in kids' literature history and a switch like this (with all the attendant, thorny moral issues) will get her that place. These are major character imperfections - but I repeat, JKR has not gone to far as to make Hermione and Ginny evil, they are just misguided on the one hand and desperate on the other.
Name: Broadwaypoetess (FA) reviewed Single on Aug 18, 2005 06:50 pm
Wow. I must say I enjoy this theory, and wish that it would happen in book 7, mainly because of my disappointment with the lust aspect of H/G. Not that lust is terrible, but there really was no emotion there. I would love to see them break up, it would cause some interesting drama (ie: Voldemort kidnapping Ginny), and if would help my ships float, mainly Harry/Luna, even if it did not fully occur in canon. (And also my own BZ/HG, if R/Hr sunk. Though I know Blaise is too much of a minor character, it would make my fanfics more real.) Sadly, I think JKR loves Ginny and Hermione too much to make the characters look bad, but I think it would give both characters interesting layers. This was an excellent read, Creamtea! (And even though I don't ship it, I like how you fit D/G at the end. Makes sense.)
Name: Tracey reviewed Single on Aug 18, 2005 11:25 am
I quite liked this theory -- it works well of the odd, fanfiction-y plot that HBP had. I, too, thought that the occurance of "Love Potions" throughout the text might have meant something. I don't, however, want to think as badly of Hermione as she is made out to be here. Is it entirely possible that she wasn't in on the scheme -- or slightly -- but the same thing could've been happening to her as well? I must commend you, on one thing that truly stood out: the ability to step back and take an unbias view. You came up with possible theories and theories that just didn't work. You looked at both sides, thought about it, and then discarded. Bravo! Excellent work.
Name: Vanceone reviewed Single on Aug 18, 2005 07:40 am
Okay, I've read the essay, and the comments. Intriguing. This was linked over at the HMS_Harmony forums (So, yes, I'm a militant Harmonian). I like this essay alot. We had started our own love potion theory, which dovetails rather nicely with this one, aside from Hermione dosing Harry. The interview, however, ended that. See--Harry falling for Ginny under a love potion is even more attractive for Harmonians that for you Ginny/Draco shippers. :) The big difficulty I have is that Hermione likes Ron... which I just have a hard time believing, myself, based on books 1-5. So, what evidence is there of Hermione being under a love potion too? But that's neither here nor there. My most concrete objections to this theory are again, the interview. I do find it suspicious JKR never "sunk" Harmony on her website, but it's incredibly hard to accept that she's lied and really means Harry and Hermione to get together. I can accept the idea Hermione has given up on ever getting Harry to like her and thus picks Ginny, a more positive version of Cho, as Harry's "ideal girl", but it doesn't square with her morality, either. I want this love potion theory or a variation of it to be valid.... but I don't see the interview allowing it to happen. JKR just didn't seem to be that careful in the interview of guarding her secrets when it came to shipping... for Snape, yes. Not for shipping. Until I can see a very plausable explanation for her statements in the interview, I have to conclude that as nice as the love potion theory is--JKR is just a horrifically poor writer. Which doesn't make much sense either. I mean--there never is any love between Harry and Ginny--it's lust. Creamtea--you are exactly write-- this is not romance. But JKR seems to leave no other explanation. In other words, I would love to see your salvage attempt at the interview, Creamtea.
Name: creamtea reviewed Single on Aug 16, 2005 09:12 pm
As to why Hermione didn't dose Ron: because Hermione is actually a moral person. And that may sound odd given my theory, but the thing is that she actually believes she's doing right by Harry as, from the outside looking in, she sees that Ginny is perfect for Harry so she believes Harry MUST love Ginny - how can he not? - she's 'ideal' for him. This is one of the things I'll bring up in my future JKR Mugglenet Interview essay - JKR HAS to say 'Ginny is pretty much ideal' to make sense of Hermione's actions. If Hermione did not genuinely believe that Ginny and Harry were 'made for each other' then she would just later be revealed as a controling bitch, when that is NOT what motivates her. As to why that explains her non-dosing of Ron: it is one thing to look from the outside in to a 'relationship' and think 'aren't they perfect for each other', but it's quite another to be looking from the inside out. Because Hermione is IN the 'relationship' with Ron, she feels all its pains and indecisions and uncertainties. She knows she has feelings for Ron, but it is quite clear from all her actions that she has deep uncertainty as to what. if anything, he feels for her. It is one thing for her to dose Harry when, in her own blind way, she feels utterly confident that Harry/Ginny is the right thing, it is quite another for her to dose Ron when her own feelings tell her he might not care, and so making him care would be an abuse. That is why she did not dose Ron. The fact that she doesn't extrapolate that logic onto what she is doing re Harry/Ginny is just one of her blindspots. JKR doesn't write 'angel or bitch', she writes complex characters. Hermione is an extremely clever, logical person who has emotional blindspots. And look back at JKR's interview to see reference to clever intellectuals having blindspots in an emotional way. She fronts it by tacking it on to Dumbledore - but IMO she is also talking about Hermione.
Name: Pirate Keke reviewed Single on Aug 16, 2005 03:16 pm
First off, Kristy, you need to actually read everything properly to get the full feel of it, you just can't 'speedread' through it. There is plenty of evidence supporting this theory so I don't know what you're going on about how 'random' it is. Plus you are contradicting yourself when you are telling us to get out of fandom and to be more open-minded. Why don't /you/ try and be a little more open-minded and just consider this theory. To Creamtea -Beautiful theory. I absolutely love it! I admit I was skeptical myself when I first clicked on the link but you provide so much actual canon evidence that it is rather hard to deny the truth of it. I refuse to take the entire Ginny/Harry thing at face value because I don't think JKR is that bad at writing romance. Quite the opposite really. I liked the realistic Harry/Cho relationship and thought it was well done as a 'first crush'. Anyway, I just want to tell you I love your theory and really believe in it. I can't wait to read more of your work in the future.
Name: Anonymous reviewed Single on Aug 16, 2005 11:04 am
Kristy, did u even read the essay? What exactly is 'random' abt it when everything is backed up by canon evidence? U don't necessarily have to agree with the theory but don't say its some wild fantasy with made-up crap.
Name: Kristy reviewed Single on Aug 16, 2005 10:34 am
I guess I can see how putting together something like this would be cool if you were prepping to write fanfiction about this or had some time to kill and were just throwing random theories out there but...I mean, you don't really BELIEVE any of this, do you? You honestly think that is what JKR has done and you're on the same page as her? C'mon now...I think it's time for you to venture a lil OUT of the fandom - there's a whole world out there, y'know... and out of curiousity, (I may have missed this as I speedread your writing) why wouldn't hermione have used the love potion on Ron, especially when she knows he fancies her, and she was miserable, upset and crying all the time - it was merely a matter of him getting off his butt and doing something about it, so why wouldn't she give him the kick in the butt she needed if she truly had the resources and, as you say, no qualms about doing so? None of this adds up...
Name: kalena reviewed Single on Aug 15, 2005 10:59 am
Harry (who does not know that he has ever been potioned) decides to break with Ginny, he still ‘cares’ about her though and it makes him miserable to do it. Ginny flares up slightly, she can see it all slipping away from her, and yet … she accepts it with a form of grace as she realises it would never have lasted as it was based on a falsity anyway, and could she have really borne to go on dosing Harry forever? Very much the mirror of MG/TR, and I've noticed that Book 6 really struck me with all its "this has happened before" incidents. Love potions, women suffering from the pangs of unrequited love -- it's everywhere in HPB. I don't give a rip about H/G except for the poor way I thought it was written, but your proposal makes the story . . . make sense!
Name: creamtea reviewed Single on Aug 14, 2005 10:32 pm
Creamtea to HOUSEOFBOO. Thanks for your post – very reasonably put. Whether you think H/G is canon as a genuine relationship or canon as a Love Potion invention (as I do) is really up to the reader. But remember, JKR made it very plain that Book 6 is only the first half of Book 7 – so events will be revealed then. Similarly the final scenes between H/G can be read at face value, or not. The thing is, that JKR would have to make those final scenes at least slightly believable at face value as otherwise her ‘big mystery’ just wouldn’t work. If H/G wasn’t believable at all then the ‘reveal’ wouldn’t be a reveal. Remember, JKR writes like a detective novelist, and in a detective novel the ostensible has to be believable, even though later it is proved wrong. Your points on HOW Hermione was drugging him. Yes, I wanted more explicit mentions of Hermione offering Harry drinks (though she does have meals with him practically every day and it’s drummed home how easy it is to spike drinks), BUT I go back to another point in my essay – we don’t know how many times she did it. The truth is it might only have been that twice (once at the Burrow and once at the pub). Because the ‘whack to the head’ was a really big factor – she may only have drugged him that twice (or a few more times) but the waning effect then got re-ignited and magnified by his cracked scull. The blow to the head was a watershead in Harry’s behaviour. As to her dosing method: I wanted to make it clearer in the essay (obviously I failed) that the original dosing method of scent was an ACCIDENT. She was aiming for potion, but screwed it up. I think she was aiming at Amortentia, but she was out of school (so limited ingredients) had little time (she couldn’t do it at home, only at the Burrow. If she’d done it at home the underage magic detector would have gone off as her parents are muggles. At the Burrow anything she did would have simply been taken as Molly. This point is canon in HBP.) and didn’t have a proper set of instructions (she only gets her Advanced Potions Book after the initial Burrow incident). She was having to wing it, and it didn’t come off. We have one other canon episode on ‘winging it’ in HBP – when Ernie tries to invent his own ‘amusing’ potion for Slughorn. It ends up as ‘a hard purple lump in the bottom of his cauldron’ in other words: a Pastille. A direct connection there as far as I’m concerned, even to the colour connection, Ernie’s purple, to the Pastille’s purple and orange. She switches to WWW potion because having blown her own go, why shouldn’t she use a ‘professional’ potion? The swtich to WWW potion makes complete sense to me. And to your final point: yes Hermione does seem OOC, it seems immoral. BUT we are TOLD by JKR in canon that Hermione doesn’t see Love Potions as Dark or dangerous. She’s not immoral – she simply doesn’t realise there ARE moral consequences to this particular thing (and why should she? Love Potions are sold for FUN by WWW).
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